Builds, Tips, Tricks and Discussions

[Wandera]

Have you got a build in mind ?

Are you substantially new to NWN and would like some TIPS?

Post here and lets hear it, and lets get your warrior on the dance floor thriving for victory.

[JYAP]

How bout this:Take 1 monk,level him up to level 6,put points in Move Silently,Hide,and Tumble. At level 7,multiclass to Rogue,place points as you wish. For attributes,put all you can in Dexterity and Wisdom. Put the rest in Constitution. For feats,get Weapon Finesse at least. At most,go for Improved Critical in Unarmed Strike. For equipment,go for Dexterity boosting items and/or AC boosting items. Remember Bracers of Armor doesn't stack with magic armor,nor does Rings of Protection with Cloaks of Protection. You'd want a Cloak of Resistance if you're getting a Ring of Protection anyways. Now,you got a sneaky little monk who's hard to hit,(preferably)hasted,runs like the dickens,sneak attack for major damage,and hide. At 16,put your attribute point in Dex and go rogue again. Get Defensive Roll if you drive the tanks up the wall with your AC,otherwise,you pick. On a side note,at the start,sacrifice 5 points in Wisdom to put in Intelligence,then get Expertise. You'll be even harder to hit.

This is a rather tricky build IMO,and since a 13-year old designed it,it's gotta have some flaws in it. But try it,you might like it. :)

[CarliZ]

10 fighter 7 monk (for speed) and then the rest weapon master. take the monk lvls LAST and save some skill points for tumble.

[Tiger_Eyzz]

6 monk 6 fighter 28 rogue
Starting stats:
STR 10
DEX 19
CON 10
WIS 13
INT 14
CHA 8
(I think that is right...you may have to start with 8 cons depending on what race you choose)

start 1 rogue (for maxed starting skill points with 14 INT you will get 40 starting skill points)
next go 6 monk for Imp KD
then go 4 fighter for weapon spec
next 10 rogue
then 2 fighter for epic weapon spec
then finish up rogue
you will end up with a rogue with epic weapon spec and epic dodge that does 13d6 sneaks.

Put all your skill points in:
HIDE
MS
LISTEN
SPOT
TUMBLE
UMD

[Dweia]

With 19 dex you'd have to be halfling which is -2 str, or elf, which is -2 con.

I would drop some wis as well, maybe down to 10, you don't really need it that much.

Also, 4 is the magic number, at level 20.

Every 4th level from 1 (1, 5, 9, etc) you 'lose' one bab. You want no less than 16 bab at 20.

In other words, 4 fighter, 6 monk, 10 rogue gives -2 from monk (1, 5), -3 from rogue (1, 5, 9), which is 15, or 3 attacks a round, 6fighter, 6monk, 8rogue is -2 monk, -2 rogue is 16, which is 4 attacks a round.

I would keep some fighter or monk for later though to max disc.

Maybe 8fighter, 9monk, 23 rogue (wait, do rogues get bonus feat every 3 or 4 levels?). 4 fighter, 8 monk, rest rogue, 2 fighter at 21, 22, get ewf at 21, ews at 22, then rogue from there, then stick another monk in towards the end, whne you can't take low disc anymore :P

[Almuric]

*stands in awe at Dweia's character building skills*

[JYAP]

(head asplodes)
(Bartre of Fire Emblem fame walks in,looks at that,and also has his head asplode)
(noob's head asplodes too)
(Sinow Zele's head asplodes as well)
(everywhere around the world,people's heads are asploding)

For team battles,take a barbarian and put points in taunt. Yes,taunt. How many people barring casters actually use Concentration?

[Felonious Monk]

How many people barring casters actually use Concentration?

Me do! I use taunt, too.

[Dweia]

I've been playing purely team pvp servers on nwn for like a year and a half, AR, EB, BoW, Eternal war, Antiworld, Life vs Death, Gods is coming back up soon yay :) and probably some others. I should hope I picked up a few things from hanging around with the masters :D


Anyway, just look at the bab tables in manual, they're actually right, you can work it out from there.

[JYAP]

How many people barring CASTERS actually use Concentration?

Pwned. Yes,the druid/shifter=caster.

[Almuric]

I think the ONLY place I ever use Taunt is on a PvP server. But oh boy does it work well. :)

[Felonious Monk]

How many people barring CASTERS actually use Concentration?

Pwned. Yes,the druid/shifter=caster.

I have around 10 or so builds on there, and a good bit of them have concentration. I mostly just use Jade (who isn't a caster BTW) so I can get her to level 26 or so and be an unstoppable engine of destruction. :devil:

[JYAP]

(a la Star Fox 64 acting)YOU'L NEVER DEFEAT HARNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111SH IFT+1

To stay on topic and ward away Al commenting on my insanity,when making Monks,NEVER GO BAREHANDED! GO KAMAS! Gloves means no bracers of dex,and bracers of dex gone is bad.

[Almuric]

Interesting. Sounds like I need to make some gloves that have dex on them.

[Felonious Monk]

More specifically, never make an unarmed DEX monk. There are gloves in the elite shop that give +2 STR, so a STR-based monk would be fine. There are no kamas at all in the elite shop.

Honestly, DEX based chars in general don't gain power until they start hitting epic levels, so you will want to use STR for most of your beginning builds. A STR-based dwarven rogue 11/ftr 4 in full plate with Crippling Strike and IKD can be absolutely devastating.

[Halfwingseen]

Er Off topic : Dweia who were you on AR *points to self* im gemli/vrulo
and On Topic dweia you forget monk unarmed and kama attack bonus's they are most suited to losing that ab every 5 lvls they get a boost to their ab ( ki strike ) and also the only lose 3 ab between attacks 20/17/14 ect anotehr thing that monk combo gets 5 or 6 attacks because of the bonus one or two attacks being a monk and using their weapons ( kama/fist) ^_^ <--- monk master <---- also has no life <---- i like arrows

[Dweia]

Ki Strike only makes the fists count as being a higher enhancement, it doesn't actually give any ab/damage bonus, and it's not +1 every 5, it's +1 at 10, +2 at 13, +3 at 16 (sure about +1 at 10, unsure about the other two), and then can take +4 and +5 as feats in epic with like 25 base wis.

Monks get +1 ac every 5th level, perhaps you're thinking of that?

And I dunno what you're trying to say in the last part ><

Monks have the same ab progression as rogues, etc, 3 every 4 levels.

However, with 1+ monk levels when using fists/kama's, the decrease in ab between attacks it 3 ab, not 5, so they get more attacks per round.


And as for who I was on AR...

Hint: There was a dm called Dweia
Hint2: The dm was also the leader of the Divine Guards
Hint3: I've been using the name Dweia for quite a few years now


Still need more hints?

[Halfwingseen]

>.< to divine guards i started soaring guard and divine guards took the guild when i left AR they renamed it >.< and congrats on making it to dm i heard jano got paranoid about dms and i was thinking about ac >.<

[JYAP]

If you want to retain your sanity,maybe it'd be best not to hang near Halfwing...

On-Topic:5/10 Fighter/Rogue. Get IKD and Crippling Strike. Instant win.

[Protoss119]

~busy gunning down a turken (crossbreed between a chicken and a turkey) while designing new build~

This build I'm making should be the only sneak build that shouldn't have to retreat after attacking. I'm designing a 4 Rogue/2 Fighter/2 Cleric.

Race: Elf
Starting Class: Rogue
Abilities:

STR - 14
DEX - 18
CON - 8
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA - 10

Starting Skillz:

Hide: 4
Move Silently: 4
Listen: 4
Spot: 4
Tumble: 4

These are just the vitals. There's no guaruntee that you'll use all your skill points, so put the 20 remaining skill points in whatever.

Starting Feat(s):

Toughness

Alright, this build should not be the average sneak build, which is basically attack, retreat, hide, attack, retreat, hide, attack, retreat, hide, and so on. This should be able to attack and stay in combat until the opponent is defeated or your guy is; a sort of hunter-killer, if you will. First off, when you get level'd up to 8, do this.

L1-L2 (1 Rogue): Go Fighter, get Weapon Finesse. Add skills to Discipline and any remaining to whatever.
L2-L3 (1 Rogue, 1 Fighter): Go Cleric, get Weapon Focus Rapier. Add skills to whatever. Get Healing and Magic, as you're only going to get L0-L1 Cleric spells.
L3-L4 (1 Rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric): Go Fighter again, get Dodge. Add 1 to Dex.
L4-L5 (1 Rogue, 2 Fighter, 1 Cleric): Go Rogue, add skills to Tumble till you get around 5 and then add to Hide, MS, Listen, and Spot. Make sure they are equally balanced. On a side note, it would probably be a good idea to add more to listen than to spot, as sneaks are going to be moving a lot in Stealth Mode and it will be easier to detect them.
L5-L6 (2 Rogue, 2 Fighter, 1 Cleric): Go Cleric and add skills to whatever. Get Mobility or Combat Casting.
L6-L7 (2 Rogue, 2 Fighter, 2 Cleric): Go Rogue the rest of the way and add skills to Tumble to make it 10. Keep adding skills to Listen, Spot, Hide, and MS; they will come in handy and are the backbone of the build.
L7-L8 (3 Rogue, 2 Fighter, 2 Cleric): Go Rogue again and add to Listen, Spot, Hide, and MS. Add 1 to Dex.

Ending Abilities:

STR-14 (For some extra damage)
DEX-20 (Fuels AB)
CON-8 (Crap Con, but good AC backs it up)
INT-14 (Fuels skills)
WIS-12 (For Cleric spells)
CHA-10 (Only people using CHA should be Sorcs, Bards, and Paladins)

Ending Skills:

Hide:Varies
MS:Varies
Listen:Varies
Spot:Varies
Tumble:10

The term "Varies" means that it could be anything; it depends on what the player put into those skills.

Ending Feats:

Toughness (HP Boost to make up for crap Constitution)
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus Rapier (extra AB)
Dodge (Extra AB)
Mobility/Combat Casting

Gear:

-Helm of Fleetness
-Boots of Striding +2 (Fixes Constitution problem)
-Leather Armor +#
-Large Shield +#

These are again the vitals that you need. The term "+#" means that it can have an AC bonus of anything. Generally, I use Leather Armor +3 and Large Shield +3, but it's up to you.

Load up on the buffs the Cleric class gives you. Anything that influences AB, Damage, or AC is good. Divine Favor is definitely going to be a staple in this matter. For Cantrips, fill'em up with Cure Minor Wounds. Because you got the Healing domain, Cure Light Wounds now heals 6 HP instead of 4 HP; ideal for a good healing in combat.

About this build:

This build is a sneak that, as I stated before, should not have to retreat after dealing sneak attack damage due to good AC, something the other sneak builds lacked. It can also intercept other sneakers due to Listen/Spot. All in all, it's an all-around build.

[Protoss119]

~cricket chirps since nobody has seen his build on pg. 2~

[Almuric]

Now dont go to spamming. I read it earlier!

[Protoss119]

Oh. Well, I was expecting some feedback, though.

[JYAP]

Noob Build:

Half-Elf
1 Rogue/## Wizard
Max Cha/Wis,place rest wherever except Intelligence
Take Rogue first

Win.

To elaborate: Half Elf gains no bonuses. 1 rogue level gives all of 0 benefits. No attributes in anywhere good means he can't kill a fly. And 8 Int+Wizard=phail. If this kills something,commit seppuku immediately to spare yourself the apocalypse.

On the topic of a REAL build...try a Wizard/PM/DD. Uber AC. If there was no limit to multiclassing...(shudders at thought of Sorc/PM/DD/RDD)

Or...
Whatever Race
Ranger
18 (or 20) Str
Passable Con
11-14 Wis
Whatever else you want

Skills: Hide,MS,Spot,Listen

Feats: Weapon Focus: (whatever small weapon),Toughness(optional,but you'd need to be insane to skip it),whatever else you want

GASP! A Str Ranger! BLASPHEMY! Actually,it's pretty good on paper. Hide/MS gets it where it needs to be,and the high Strength allows it to finish his opponents off easily. Yes I do expect you to dual-wield. Yes,you are gonna have sucky AC. Yes,you will die alot if you don't know what you're doing or if you're me. But oh well. You'll take any risk to try this build out...right?

[Felonious Monk]

Jeez... what the hell is wrong with me that I totally missed this topic for the last 2 weeks or so? :?

Anyhoo, feedback for Protoss.

Stats:
Your CHA and INT are too high, unless you need the INT for a prereq. You should probably drop your STR too and put more points into CON. That 8 is a killer. STR 10, CHA 8, INT 12, CON 14.

Skills:
Having Spot and Listen is redundant. Lose the Spot and keep Listen for invisible enemies. Search would make a decent substitution. Your level 7 class should be rogue to take Tumble up to 10 and your level 8 class should be fighter to max Discipline. By level 8 you should have 86 skill points (if you keep the INT), which is enough to max about 8 skills. The most important ones to have are Hide, Move Silently, Discipline, Spellcraft, Tumble, and Concentration.

Feats:
Mobility is a total waste. What good is +4 AC to AoOs when Tumble bypasses them completely? Unless you need it as a prereq, don't bother. Combat Casting blows, too. It essentially gives you +4 to your Concentration checks for casting spells, which is pretty lame. If you keep the INT, take Expertise in place of one of those. With some regen, it can totally save your hide.

Misc:
You can't empower Cure Minor Wounds, so the Healing domain shouldn't affect them. I haven't tested this personally though, and BW has been known to take shortcuts in the past.


@JYAP: Actually, the rogue level gives you 28 skill points and 1d6 SA damage at level 1. Take fighter instead and pick up Dirty Fighting as your bonus feat. And if you're maxing WIS and CHA, half-orc would probably be better.

Once the epic expansion for NWN2 comes out, that sorc/PM/RDD/DD will be a reality. It will actually be even more badass, because the PM levels will add to your caster level and the RDD levels will give you bonus spells. If they do DD right, you also get a Dodge AC bonus that starts at +1 at level 1 and increases by +1 every 3 levels. And since there will be dwarf subraces, you can pick one that doesn't get a CHA penalty.

Ugh, STR ranger. Why? Just take 4 fighter levels and you already have Ambidexterity, TWF, and ITWF without the armor restriction. That's what I do for my STR rogue and it works pretty well. Too bad Disarm is disabled, otherwise my STR rogue/fighter would eat chew through everyone. Mmmm, chewy.

[JYAP]

Take fighter instead and pick up Dirty Fighting as your bonus feat.

Am I seeing things or did you just say I should get Dirty Fighting?

[Protoss119]

Originally posted by Felonious Monk
Anyhoo, feedback for Protoss...

About that...

I need STR for extra damage, but you're right about CHA. As I said, good AC makes up for bad CON...

Right about Skills.

Right about Feats.

Actually, Empower spell DOES affect Cure Minor Wounds because it, like any healing spell, has a numeric effect to it, and that is # HP cured. Since Cure Minor Wounds originally heals 4 HPs in NWN, multiply that by 1.5 and you get 6.

[Halfwingseen]

Take fighter instead and pick up Dirty Fighting as your bonus feat.



Yeaaaaaaaaa ummmmmmmm Dirty Fighting rocks my friend situation:
Scyther wep Master getting an Extra 5d4 damage on crits... now thats evil.

[Felonious Monk]

Am I seeing things or did you just say I should get Dirty Fighting?

Uh... the point was to make a crappy n00b build right? Mission accomplished.



About that...

I need STR for extra damage, but you're right about CHA. As I said, good AC makes up for bad CON...

Right about Skills.

Right about Feats.

Actually, Empower spell DOES affect Cure Minor Wounds because it, like any healing spell, has a numeric effect to it, and that is # HP cured. Since Cure Minor Wounds originally heals 4 HPs in NWN, multiply that by 1.5 and you get 6.

Which is better, +1-2 damage or +1-2 HP per level? Good AC doesn't make up for good CON for a number of reasons. First, it does nothing to help against mages or clerics. Second, once an IKD nails you, nearly all of it is gone. Third, traps don't check AC. Forth, while your AC is high now, the AB of everyone else will grow at a much faster rate than your AC will, so in a few more levels it won't be much of a factor anymore. The CON bonus is the gift that keeps on giving. :) Put your stat points someplace useful and take WS: rapier.

You misunderstand how Empower Spell works. It multiplies all variable, numeric effects by 1.5. It shouldn't work with Cure Minor Wounds, and if it does it's a bug.



Yeaaaaaaaaa ummmmmmmm Dirty Fighting rocks my friend situation:
Scyther wep Master getting an Extra 5d4 damage on crits... now thats evil.

You're kidding right? You lose all of your attacks but one, but get 1d4 damage added on to it. In that same situation the WM could use Power Attack and get +5 damage to all his attacks (that's +25 on a crit) at the cost of only 5 AB. Dirty fighting blows big time, that's why no one ever takes it.

[Almuric]

Dirty fighting? *goes to get player manual*

I think I missed that one.

[Protoss119]

You misunderstand how Empower Spell works. It multiplies all variable, numeric effects by 1.5. It shouldn't work with Cure Minor Wounds, and if it does it's a bug.

Then the whole concept of the Healing Domain is a bug, is it not?

[Felonious Monk]

Dirty fighting? *goes to get player manual*

I think I missed that one.

It's on page 93 of the Gold manual. Dirty Fighting has a prereq of BAB 2 and allows you to give up all but one of your attacks in a round for a 1d4 damage bonus. It's useful up until you have more than one attack per round but will never get used again after that.



Then the whole concept of the Healing Domain is a bug, is it not?

Of course not. All of the other Cure spells can be Empowered normally because they have "variable, numeric effects".

Actually, I just tested everything myself and, while it can't actually be empowered through the feat, Cure Minor Wounds does heal 6 HP if you have the healing domain. It looks like BW took the easy way out with this one.

[Protoss119]

Yeah...perhaps it doesn't actually empower them, but creates an effect like empower spell in which Cure Minor Wounds is effected. It's a thought.

[Felonious Monk]

I think what they did is just set all the Cure spells to heal 150% damage if you have the Healing domain. The problem with doing that (aside from empowering spells that shouldn't be empowered) is that now you can empower them again and get a 225% increase in damage healed or maximize them and heal max*1.5. Cure Critical Wounds goes from 38 average (CL 20) to 57 with Healing domain to 85.5 with Empower Spell an Healing domain. Course, it's still not as good as Heal. :)

[Almuric]

True. It's not as if cure critical wounds would be worth anything when you're level 20 no matter what you do to it.

[Protoss119]

Of course, since I don't see anyone that's L20...

[Halfwingseen]

You misunderstand how Empower Spell works. It multiplies all variable, numeric effects by 1.5. It shouldn't work with Cure Minor Wounds, and if it does it's a bug.



Monk. *runs to scripting of minor* nDam(the amount healed) nDam=4 *skips to empowering script
nDam=nDam+(nDam)/2
thus 4+(4/2)=6




You're kidding right? You lose all of your attacks but one, but get 1d4 damage added on to it. In that same situation the WM could use Power Attack and get +5 damage to all his attacks (that's +25 on a crit) at the cost of only 5 AB. Dirty fighting blows big time, that's why no one ever takes it.
Dirty Fighting makes you lose all your natural attacks per round thus you lose one attack per 5 BAB. as a monk you can keep 2-4 attacks at least and as a fighter you keep 1 ( 2 IF you have a haste item )
:) i use it and i prefer dirty fighting because 2 attacks at full ab kind of kill. and power attack doesnt stack with massive crit dirty fighting does :) its somehting ive found out i like 1d10+5d4 damage over +25 anyday ( or am i wrong and massive crit is multiplied too then 5d10+5d4 is much much better than +25

Also on the Topic of Cure minor. Al Try doing this its actually quite nice make heal minor a magic missile of sorts. nDam= 1d4((nCasterlevel+1)/2)
If nCasterlevel > 9
Then nCasterlevel = 9
Thus you must do the same to the other heals i dunno they become more random they end up can do from healing 5 to healing 25 at minor
Ncaster Level topped at 9 for light 11 for mod 13 for serious 15 for critical and heal is capped at 25
Light heal at 1d6 Mod at 1d8 serious at d10 and critical at d12 heal at d20 its actually buffs the weaker spells and nerfs heal its actually just around 10 minutes of editing causes less lag ( in my comp anyway ) and makes the heal system more relyant on empowerings and maximize to be extra effective :) regens could be worked at 1d2(Ncaster level+3/4) Ncasterlevel > 9 and 21 ( for monstrous and regenerate respectively )
thus regenerate can heal 6d2 a round and montrous can heal 4d2 a round ( just a thought i have spent around 8 total hours editing EVERY spell to fix epic mages complete failure to step up to the plate ( only wep amsters monks and shifters can hold a finger to any of the rogue builds out there and the mages in epci can be killed by a lvl 25 fighter ) )
Of course you may not even want to do all the heal editing. Oh and also can you please take the Seperating the missile damages script out of magic missile and the missile storms..and ball lightning ( if you want it may unbalnce eveyrthign im not sure ) its just that resisting all of the bloody greater missile storm with the ring of element resistance kinda screws things up alot 20 damage maximized is magic missle 55 maximized is lesser 115 maximized is ball lighting and 235 maximized is greater ( of course this is ona single target they would be spread out between2 or 3 people usaually )

those are my two cents :)

[Felonious Monk]

Monk. *runs to scripting of minor* nDam(the amount healed) nDam=4 *skips to empowering script
nDam=nDam+(nDam)/2
thus 4+(4/2)=6

Really? Because when I open up NW_S0_CurMinW all it has after the spellhook code is:



spellsCure(4, 0, 4, VFX_IMP_SUNSTRIKE, VFX_IMP_HEAD_HEAL, GetSpellId());

No nDam and no empower script. Make a cleric and try to empower it. You can't because you aren't supposed to be able to. The only spells that have the empower script in them are the ones with variable, numeric effects. Is it really that hard to understand?



Dirty Fighting makes you lose all your natural attacks per round thus you lose one attack per 5 BAB. as a monk you can keep 2-4 attacks at least and as a fighter you keep 1 ( 2 IF you have a haste item )
:) i use it and i prefer dirty fighting because 2 attacks at full ab kind of kill. and power attack doesnt stack with massive crit dirty fighting does :) its somehting ive found out i like 1d10+5d4 damage over +25 anyday ( or am i wrong and massive crit is multiplied too then 5d10+5d4 is much much better than +25


You keep your haste attack but lose all but one of the others. You lose all your attacks from wielding two weapons and can't enter Flurry mode so the most you can ever have even as a monk is 2. If you don't believe me try it yourself.

The thing is, you have to choose between 2 attacks at full AB (3 if dual wielding) plus another 3-7 (depending on the circumstances) and two attacks at full AB with +1d4 damage tacked on. If even one of the attacks that you gave up would have hit, you lose out on damage. Using Dirty Fighting is worse than not using it unless you only have 1 attack per round.

Why wouldn't PA stack with massive crits? They are two totally separate things. Massive crit isn't multiplied, it's added on, so you get 1d10+5d4 on a crit with a scythe WM assuming DF gets multiplied (and it isn't supposed to be, but that hasn't stopped BW before :D ). That means you average 18 damage and get a maximum of 30. Even if PA doesn't stack with massive crits, it still deals better damage on average. If it does, then the average for PA is greater than the maximum for DF.

[Halfwingseen]

Really? Because when I open up NW_S0_CurMinW all it has after the spellhook code is:



spellsCure(4, 0, 4, VFX_IMP_SUNSTRIKE, VFX_IMP_HEAD_HEAL, GetSpellId());

Sorry i was looking at an edited version heh


And at the PA vs DF thing DF also has the advanatge when fihgitng high ac charactors id ratehr get the bonus 1d4 with a 10-15% chance ofhit than a +5 damage with a 5% chance even with 3-4 attacksa a round assuming 15% chance ( scewed odds i knwo i dont feel like doing a formula at the moment ) 30%> 20% for 4 attacks though in reality i would efinitely rather have the chance to hit than the damage 1 AB but 40-50 damage will die to a 1000 hp ( about ) DD wit high enough ac but getting more hits on the little bastard is best :)

[Felonious Monk]

And at the PA vs DF thing DF also has the advanatge when fihgitng high ac charactors id ratehr get the bonus 1d4 with a 10-15% chance ofhit than a +5 damage with a 5% chance even with 3-4 attacksa a round assuming 15% chance ( scewed odds i knwo i dont feel like doing a formula at the moment ) 30%> 20% for 4 attacks though in reality i would efinitely rather have the chance to hit than the damage 1 AB but 40-50 damage will die to a 1000 hp ( about ) DD wit high enough ac but getting more hits on the little bastard is best :)

Actually, against very high AC (need a 19-20 to hit) Power Attack becomes even better because 1) you need those extra attacks to try to land a hit and 2) you essentially get 5 free damage at no cost. For ACs slightly lower than that, you will deal more damage by not using either because you will have more attacks and will thus end up hitting more often. Take the case of a hasted fighter with 16+ BAB and an opponent he needs to roll a 16 to hit on his highest AB. In any given round he will have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting with his first two attacks and a one in 20 chance to hit with his last 3. To simplify things, lets assume 20 rounds of combat. Normally, his haste attack will hit 5 times, his first base attack will hit 5 times, and his remaining 3 attacks will hit a total of 3 times. Let's assume he's using a +3 longsword with 1d6 elemental damage and has 24 STR and WS: Longsword. On any given hit he will deal 1d8+1d6+3+7+2 damage for an average of 20 damage. In those 20 rounds he has hit a total of 13 times for an average of 260 damage. Now let's assume he's using Dirty Fighting. His number of hits has dropped to 10, but his average damage has increase to 22.5, meaning he only deals 225 damage in the same time frame. He would be much better off not using Dirty Fighting. If he needs a 20 to hit on all the attacks he will land only 5 of them in 20 rounds normally or 2 of them if using DF. In that case, the damage drops from 100 to 45. If he were using PA, his damage would be 125, 150 with IPA.

Whether PA is beneficial or not is entirely circumstantial (in the first example the average damage would drop from 260 to 125), but there will never be a reason to use Dirty Fighting after you get your second attack per round. Ever. You will always be better off using something else or simply not using it at all. If you want to use it, fine, but don't say I didn't warn you.

[Halfwingseen]

Whether PA is beneficial or not is entirely circumstantial (in the first example the average damage would drop from 260 to 125), but there will never be a reason to use Dirty Fighting after you get your second attack per round. Ever. You will always be better off using something else or simply not using it at all. If you want to use it, fine, but don't say I didn't warn you.



:) okay maybe for fighters but those lesser known melee builds that need the bloody ab i go with them :) PM's bards clerics druids shifters ( for this one dirtty fighting can be god in some forms you get bonus attacks that are not affected by dirty fighting thus the bonus 1d4 damage is nice ) oh oh oh! try a barbarian sorcerer they need the ab ( okay if you want to argue the last one true strike and imp power attack best i admit +10 ab +10 damage better than +20 ab +1d4 damage )

[Felonious Monk]

:) okay maybe for fighters but those lesser known melee builds that need the bloody ab i go with them :) PM's bards clerics druids shifters ( for this one dirtty fighting can be god in some forms you get bonus attacks that are not affected by dirty fighting thus the bonus 1d4 damage is nice ) oh oh oh! try a barbarian sorcerer they need the ab ( okay if you want to argue the last one true strike and imp power attack best i admit +10 ab +10 damage better than +20 ab +1d4 damage )

My statement applies whether you have 9 attacks per round or 2, it isn't worth giving those up if you only gain 1d4 damage in return. I suppose a finesser wielding a single mundane (no magic properties) dagger without any buffs that increase damage and no sneak or death attack that has only two base attacks will end up slightly better (one attack at 2d4 as opposed to two iterative attacks at 1d4), but let's be honest, that build sucks and he's screwed anyway. As soon as any of those conditions change (+1 dagger, dual wielding,better weapon, bard song, sneak attack, Bless, BAB 11+, etc), he's better off not using it at all.

And shifters do not have any bonus attacks that makes Dirty Fighting act any differently than for anyone else. A shifter with 15 BAB loses two attacks in any form he's in (or if it's a monk shifter, 4 attacks). Trust me, I know shifters.

Dirty Fighting doesn't give you any AB, it gives you crap damage at the cost of nearly all of your attacks. Assuming someone was daft enough to make a barb/sorc, what do they gain from DF? If they only have 2 base attacks (BAB 10, which would be stupid for a barb/sorc anyway), they lose more damage from Flame Weapon and Keen Edge than they gain from Dirty Fighting. Attacking normally is better then using Dirty Fighting.

[Almuric]

I get the feeling you really dont like the Dirty Fighing feat!

[Felonious Monk]

It's a bad feat. Even in PnP nobody takes it. Of course, I'm all for my opponents taking it and using it against me as much as they want. :D

[Halfwingseen]

Think what you want monk :) but :) in NWN 2 supposedly dirty fighting is going to be a prereq for alot of feats..... ( personally as one who tends to get kd'd alot im voting for kd to require dirty fighting :D)




P.S. what the hell ever happened to Sap..........

[Felonious Monk]

Think what you want monk :) but :) in NWN 2 supposedly dirty fighting is going to be a prereq for alot of feats..... ( personally as one who tends to get kd'd alot im voting for kd to require dirty fighting :D)

Pfft, I'd like to see that source. I've been following developer comments for months and none of them have said anything at all about feats, except for the inclusion of free "background" feats at level one. Besides, Obsidian is tied to D&D rules and in D&D Dirty Fighting isn't a prerequisite for anything.

And with any luck KD/IKD will go the way of the dodo, as will Discipline. Just wishful thinking there, but it's not entirely unlikely. :)




P.S. what the hell ever happened to Sap..........

It's still in the game, you just have to be able to cast level 100 spells to take it.

[JYAP]

Just nitpicking,but scythes deal 2d4,not 1d10.

[Felonious Monk]

Nobody ever said otherwise. The only references to anything involving 1d10 in the past couple pages have been regarding massive criticals.

[Protoss119]

INCOMING NEW BUILD!!!

~the new build hits a windshield of a british car~

~the windshield wipers wipe off the build~

~the driver then sees a whole bunch of builds coming from the skies~

British Driver: By George, it's raining builds!

~and so, the British pwned many noobs with their new builds happily ever after~

Kay, so about this build:

Back in the EB days when I was but a guest
We started this kinda guild thing; Surely I don't jest
Our boss, JYAP, he asked for builds, and I guess I'll have to say
I didn't have any builds in mind on that unfortunate day.
Now today, I got a build for him, but he's currently in NC;
But when he comes back, I got a build for him to see...

Kay. In case you didn't know what/were vomiting when I was reciting my poem/song/thing, back before Trogworld was formed and we all got lost, I was just a guest here. What the hell, JYAP knows the whole story; ask him when he gets back!

Anywho, this build is an anti-tower shield Barbarian/Sorcerer. Now, one has to ask; why the hell are we getting sorc? You'll find out.

Starting Abilities:

STR:16
DEX:13
CON:14
INT: 10
WIS:10
CHA:12

Note: Half-Orc is recommended for this. In that case:

STR: 17
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 9
WIS: 10
CHA: 12


Starting Skills:

Concentration: 4
Discipline: 4

Anything else you want.

Starting Feats:

Weapon Focus (Greatsword or something else that does a lot of damage)

Leveling up:

Level 1-Level 2 (Barbarian 1): Go Sorc. Add 1 to Concentration. Make sure to get True Strike.
Level 2-Level 3 (Barbarian 1/Sorc 1): Add 1 to Concentration and Discipline. Get Combat Casting. Yeah, I know, it kind of sucks, but what we're trying to do is use True Strike before combat. If someone gets you while you're casting, concentration comes in handy.
Level 3-Level 4 (Barbarian 2/Sorc 1): Add 1 to Concentration and Discipline. Add 1 to STR.
Level 4-Level 5 (Barbarian 3/Sorc 1): Add 1 to...ah, you know what I'm gonna say.
Level 5-Level 6 (Barbarian 4/Sorc 1): +1 Con and Dis. Get Toughness.
Level 6-Level 7 (Barbarian 5/Sorc 1): +1 Con and Dis.
Level 7-Level 8 (Barbarian 6/Sorc 1): Add 1 to STR. +1 Con and Dis.

Ending Abilities:

STR:18
DEX:13
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:10
CHA:12

Half-Orc Ending Abilities:

STR:19
DEX:13
CON:14
INT:9
WIS:10
CHA:12

Ending Skills:

Concentration: 11
Discipline: 5

Among other things. Tumble doesn't sound bad, either, to help improve the AC a little bit.

Fighting the Tower Shieldist: Before you fight, use Barbarian Rage as usual to max out damage with STR and also increase your HP since AC is going to be kind of low. Then, cast True Strike (and hope for no spell failure X_X). This should give you a hell of a lot of AB, enough to surpass his AC and do some good damage in the process.

Cons:

-Lack of AC
-Spell Failure possible

Doesn't look like there's more to explain, is there? Heh. OK, well enjoy yourself.

[JYAP]

coughcoughstillspellcoughcough

Or you do what I did with WSE.

Use lighter armor/shields. With leather armor and a small shield,WSE had a 15% chance or so of spell failure. Not too shabby since sound burst roxxors the house.

Now,once I find my NWN disc,you all will die...Yes,I DO intend to return,and I DO intend to kick ass.

[Felonious Monk]

In the half-orc version, take a point from INT and put it in DEX. You get +1 reflex/AC at no cost. Also, TS can't be stilled and it doesn't need to. It doesn't have any somatic components, despite the description.

I gotta ask though, why sorc? If you go wiz instead you get more skill points and can totally ignore CHA. Your stats would then be:

Human:

STR:16
DEX:14
CON:14
INT: 14
WIS:10
CHA:8

Half-Orc:

STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 6

[JYAP]

Y'know,a still spell True Strike on a cleric with Harm could do this easier. Granted,it'll be hard for him to get a kill,but hey,half off on the loser with the shield. Besides,if you get Water as a domain,you get Ice Storm. Instant win.

[Halfwingseen]

besdies if you get plant and travel as a domain instant win creeping doom+ slow grease etc barksin for more ac

[JYAP]

Barkskin doesn't give AC to my knowledge,only DR.

[Halfwingseen]

barkskin gives +3 ac at lvl 5 + 4 at lvl 7 + 5 at lvl 9 its natural AC the same as amulets so u can go get a wisdom ammy instead of AC ammys your thinking STONESKIN

[Felonious Monk]

Halfwingseen is actually right on this one. Could it be? Has hell frozen over? :P

[JYAP]

Well DUH,it froze over. I'm the new devil. And everyone knows I love ice magic.

Dirty Fighting still sucks.

[Halfwingseen]

dirty fighting kicks ass
personally i'd much rather deal damage vs damage reducttion even if it is 4 or less than deal 0 damage :)

[Felonious Monk]

Dirty Fighting sucks, but we've already been over this.

[JYAP]

I only brought it up to tease Halfwing. You might want to get a head bro...

Next Topic: The first-level feats. Are they worth it?

Personally I only take Luck of Heroes if I'm Human. Otherwise I just forget it and grab something useful like Combat Casting or Toughness.

[Halfwingseen]

I grab a shit load of the lvl one feats all the saves ones and and the initiative feats are also very very very useful in deciding a close fight

[JYAP]

Pretty hard to get a "shit load" of them unless you're human/fighter/both.

And get a new sig. :P

[Felonious Monk]

I usually ignore them all.

[Halfwingseen]

and jyap i am just that as you can see i am human and according to my self i am a fighter thus human fighter booya and i like my siggy wiggy with a piggy and i hate rhyming but it was nessicary in that case :)

[JYAP]

That was unnessacary.

Anyways,what do you guys think of the +2 saves feats? I think they're quite useful if you got a feat lying around.

[Protoss119]

First-level feats = T3H SUX. What's better, extra HP/AC/whatever or better saves that won't come to use until the later levels?

On the other hand, they're alright when it comes to the save DCs at Eternal War.

[Halfwingseen]

protoss whats better getting + to saves that you cant get later or getting a feat that u can get with your 20 other feats later in the game?

[JYAP]

Holy hell,Halfwing actually beat out Protoss there! He's on a roll! ARMAGEDDON! AHHHHHHH!

But we can all agree Light Hammers suck.

[Felonious Monk]

Are you kidding? Light hammers kick serious ass. I can't believe anyone wouldn't want to... you know what, I can't even fake it. They blow donkeys.

[JYAP]

What's not to hate about 1d4 bludgeon,2x crit,medium(wtf!),and requiring martial weapon prof? It's the junkiest weapon out there.

Of course,there's stuff like clubs and quarterstaffs that suck as well. Both only have 2x crit to my memory and 1d6 damage. Maybe quarterstaff would have been better if they let Monks keep their attacks with one.

[Halfwingseen]

"points out that a lvl 17 wizard lvl 23 fighter can actually make use of staves fairly well the best part about them though is the fact that in reg games they have the ON hit properties and are 2 handed and normally though u can get a Q staff qith bonus 1d10 acid and then use blackstaff and giev it +5 enhancement and on hit dispel too:) useless i think not ( but then and only then ) and light hammers have their place in the finessing world they are one of the few ways ( along with clubs and maces ) though light hamemrs are often much more well enchanted than these to kill things immune to slashing and piercing *wink wink nudge nudge*

[JYAP]

My response to the *wink wink nudge nudge* part: (SMASH!) Maces>Light hammers. Simple weapon prof(which everyone sans caster has),1d6 damage,19-20 2x crit if I recall correctly. They pwn light hammers.

Q-Staffs still suck. A 17 Wiz/23 Fighter is still gonna get carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey due to the fact he missed out on 17 levels of HP and he can't wear armor without spell failure(unless there's armor that doesn't give spell failure,but we don't get any of that in EB). And Blackstaff isn't worth a crap weapon. A katana or bastard sword works better and besides,you get a shield.

However,you cannot make a case for the club no matter how hard you try.

[Halfwingseen]

well a + 20 damage of all types and a imba'd up club would be better thana regular greataxe lol thats about it

[JYAP]

So what would be an ideal build for a Blackguard? His abilities don't really fit in anywhere...

[Halfwingseen]

depending on where you are making it and what options are available


PVP without aligntment change: Cleric/monk/BG or cleric/wepmaster/BG for a huge combat bonus for clerics Or a sorcerer/pale master/BG if you want the lvl 10 palemaster lvl 2 BG and lvl 28 sorc for uber saves and immunities
Pvp with alignment change Paly/BG/COT saves upwards of 60 at 40 and fairly large combat ability
Pvp in general Bard/Blackguard can make an awesome counter mage high saves silence self and kd then sneak sneak sneak busting through the stoneskin ( if it isnt dispelled from far away ) or just for bonus damage
Roleplaying a monk/blackguard for some serious you are going to die and die slowly and painfully rp
hack n slash: blackguard fighter for some nasty greater cleaves

[JYAP]

Interesting. I'm usually good at this,but Blackguard's abilities are very odd. Thanks Halfwing.

I dunno what to talk about next.

[Felonious Monk]

Ponies or rainbows. Maybe both.

[JYAP]

Maybe on how there's no use for cantrips?

[Halfwingseen]

hey hey hey hey hey Ray of frost can save a wizards ass when they rn out of spells and the guy is left at near death and laughing but thats about the only use ive ever had for em

[JYAP]

Even then,the guy would die of suffocation before dying of 1d4 or something damage. Also,check out the fanfic,Halfwing. You'll love the new chapter.

Anyhoo,a dual-wielding Handaxe WM would clean house no?

[Halfwingseen]

your right...no it wouldnt :/ to dual weild you woudl have to be ranger lvl 9 or a high dex wep master if its the latetr u deal shti for damage even on crits 4d6 on a crit isnt anythign compared to the 3d8 for longsword same max damage but hm twice the chance for crits. + the longsword gets a shield and + 3 ac meanign in a fight the longsword has at least a +5 bonus to ac ( -2 for dual wielding + 3 for shield ) and then the lack of the 3 ac for shiedl and the fact the long sword isnt dual wielded u have +5 ab for hitting and u crit just as often and thats assuming they both have 10 str which you knwo isnt likely lest assume 16 ( minimum for ambi ) dex for the double wielding hero and 14 str for him giving him +4 damage nice right? now lets assume the exact oppostie for teh longsword 16 str so + 3 damage and 14 dex wait whythe hell have 14 dex with full plat 18 str and 12 dex +4 damage and 2 more ab :/ hmmmmm yea save hand axe wep masters for rogue halfling wep masters :/

[JYAP]

Rogue Halfling WMs get pwned by KD.

And Skippy,you need to consider every possibility.

Suppose you would level to 20 automatically. You would first start off as a Human Ranger with as much Str as need be. You pick up the feats you need to grab and assign points into Hide and MS. Since Rangers have the same BAB progress as Fighters(I think)and if you're human the feats should get out of the way pretty fast,you should hit WM somewhere between 6 and 10. Since you only require 8 levels in WM to get the good stuff,you can simply multiclass again to rogue and level up there from now on. Tada. You can sneak so the AC handicap isn't so much a big deal while dealing maximum damage. On double crits with Keen Imp Crit handaxes,you're doling out 1d6+hopefully 5+other modsx4 damage on a roll of 18-20. If you don't get it,sneak back and try again. With KD,this would murder mages pretty easily.

Now,let's look at the halfling. The handaxe isn't finesseable to my knowledge,so the halfling needs to deal with -2 to Str. To actually deal decent damage said halfling also needs good Str. Since to get good AC he needs Dex unless he's equipping heavier armor(which is right out if you want to sneak),he's split between Str and Dex. In addition,I don't think Rogue gets BAB as fast as Ranger,so he needs to wait longer to hit WM. Considering he needs to waste a feat grabbing Shields,and he doesn't get the extra feat the human does,he'll take quite a bit before hitting WM. The shield also gives the halfling an armor penalty so he'll be spotted more easily. On top of that,his competition doesn't consist of enemy halfling warriors,so if he tries to KD,he has -4 to do so. Meanwhile our ranger friend can get up to +8 on KD if he has enough spare points to place around. I think it's obvious which one wins.

[Halfwingseen]

Rogue Halfling WMs get pwned by KD.

And Skippy,you need to consider every possibility.

Suppose you would level to 20 automatically. You would first start off as a Human Ranger with as much Str as need be. You pick up the feats you need to grab and assign points into Hide and MS. Since Rangers have the same BAB progress as Fighters(I think)and if you're human the feats should get out of the way pretty fast,you should hit WM somewhere between 6 and 10. Since you only require 8 levels in WM to get the good stuff,you can simply multiclass again to rogue and level up there from now on. Tada. You can sneak so the AC handicap isn't so much a big deal while dealing maximum damage. On double crits with Keen Imp Crit handaxes,you're doling out 1d6+hopefully 5+other modsx4 damage on a roll of 18-20. If you don't get it,sneak back and try again. With KD,this would murder mages pretty easily.

Now,let's look at the halfling. The handaxe isn't finesseable to my knowledge,so the halfling needs to deal with -2 to Str. To actually deal decent damage said halfling also needs good Str. Since to get good AC he needs Dex unless he's equipping heavier armor(which is right out if you want to sneak),he's split between Str and Dex. In addition,I don't think Rogue gets BAB as fast as Ranger,so he needs to wait longer to hit WM. Considering he needs to waste a feat grabbing Shields,and he doesn't get the extra feat the human does,he'll take quite a bit before hitting WM. The shield also gives the halfling an armor penalty so he'll be spotted more easily. On top of that,his competition doesn't consist of enemy halfling warriors,so if he tries to KD,he has -4 to do so. Meanwhile our ranger friend can get up to +8 on KD if he has enough spare points to place around. I think it's obvious which one wins.
oh um
1. a ranger gains feats much slower than a fighter a human fighter gets wep master at lvl 9 ( 8 lvls of fighter ) a human ranger gets it at 13 :/ you owuld indeed have lvl 8 wep master but no rogue at lvl 12
2. aha! u use ranger: no full plate for u so ur missing out of 3 ac for shield and 4 ac for heavy armor ( unless ranger cant use medium then its u lose 6 ac assuming 13 dex )
3. you can indeed dex a hand axe even if halfling i do it on eb constantly i should know and assuming lvl 20 on both parties at lvl 15 i get to become a wep master only 5 lvls of wep master so uidont get the bonus to rate only damge and no need for str for damage when you have a friggin sneak dice of 7d6 your assuming halfling is using kd and ranger is using ikd which is an unfair thing to do when comparing ( giving one side a difference other than the difference you are comparing ) and a halfling gets the freaking +2 to hide/ms affity anyway so the large shield penalty goes awya -2 and -2 ( tower shields are - 10 ) in one of those 5 wep master lvls u can pick up shield 10 str 25 dex is ( with padded armor regular not + anythign ) is equivilent of havign full plate ::/ and the nxt lvl u pick up greater dex and bam u have full plate + 1 anyway back to lvl 20ness and as halfling u get to spot sneaky rangers easily with your huge skilsl u can get hide/ms/spot/listen/disc(whops u cant kd me) and then have 1 skill point left over for for intimidate then the +1 int modifer so traps or something
overall with standard gear ( nothing but armor and weapon and shield if applicable ) halflign gets 11 ac bonus ranger gets 6...
halfling gets +9 ab and ranger gets + 4 ab ( assuming u ur using 18 str like u said ) and what about bab difference i hear u calling -2 bab differences at lvl 20 with said lvls... haha ur saying but i haha at you because i already took off ur -2 penalty on the +4 ab ( so lets reduce my ab by 2 ) +7 against +4 halfling at almost double ur ab but whats that calling halflign innate + 1 to ab rolls against larger creatures!!!!!!! double ur bonus ab and wait whats more i also get +2 dodge bonus against them along with hide and ms check bous that completely override and more the shield issues? wow tahts 13 ac and ranger gets...6 though ill give ya the 7 in wilderness but wow u get 2 more attacks that probabaly wont hit bab of 12+4 16 ab on ur best hit and u get that twice against 23 ac yea u will hit on those probabaly so ill give u 2 hits a round conssidering its a 40% chance on ur next 2 hits and a 5% chance on ur 5th hit lets check the stats the other way! 10 BAB +8 18 ab against 17 ac....ouch my first hit is 95% chance then the nxt is 70% chance then the nxt is 45%so assuming anythign under 50 doesnt work like i did iwth u 2 htis a round also so i gues sits up to the first hit out of sneak since i can spot u i get the first shot and i deal 1d6+7d6 on a reg hit if i crit i deal 4d6+7d6 a round hit and your first hit 1d6+4 damage and on a crit 4d6+16 woo exciting man thats amazing man and now its down to the fact that can put on power attack and hit u once a orund 50% of times and twice a round the other 45% ( givign a 5% chance of hitting 3 times but im not including that ) lets assume the battle lasts a turn ( 10 rounds ) i attack 15 times and out of 15 liets say 1 is a crit i deal 4d6+25 that round and 14 otehr times just 1d6 so 18d6+95 damage aggainst u ( but wait lets add senak for total damage) 25d6+95 damage vs u and u deal assuming u crit TWICE ( double the chance eh ) u attack 20 times and crit twice u deal 8d6+16 for 2 crits then add the other 18 u do 25d6+88 damage because i dont have the auto 2 points taken out of my starting stats i can afford to bring my con above 10 to 14 ( remmeebr u have to through away 3 in dex alogn with splitting into str and int and con ) thus the hp difference goes away unless u pick up toughness which i can in my 2 feats from wep master so hp's are identical i deal most damage faster and thus win the fight halfling hand axe rogue wep master > ranger double hand axe wep master oh and one more thing. thats assuming u never hit a trap or got kd'd ( i wouldnt get kd'd becaus ei would have extra skills you would just have hide/ms and intimidate ) or that i neevr got more than 1 sneak on you :/ bam i litterally looked this all up and im completely right on this one jyap all your complaints may be refered to the nwn manual and gawk ( assuming +5 gear would just make everything worse for you ) and when we go into epic i would have clear advantage gvien epic dodge and perma 50% conceal after a while vs ur ( ha if u got perfectly ( which u wouldnt becaause lack of feats ) dev crit which wouldnt even work because i dodge ur highest ab atatck and 50% onceal alogn with high ac makes it near impossible for u to crit me and by then i would have enough fort to dwithstand a dev on a butter'd down hero like urself so thank you and night

[Felonious Monk]

Cantrips will pwn come NWN2.

And a handaxe WM could be good, although I prefer that range of a short sword or kukri over the multiplier of the handaxe. For example:

Dwarf ftr 6/WM 7/DD 27

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 6

Feats will be really tight but you can squeeze in dev crit (if available) with 7 attacks/round and 27 DR. You need 13 DEX for WM anyway, so 15 isn't much of a stretch.

[JYAP]

(Scout crashes into wall of text)
I'm not dissecting that. At least I was legible.

Anyhoo,I like wizards better than sorcs.

[Halfwingseen]

Cantrips will pwn come NWN2.

And a handaxe WM could be good, although I prefer that range of a short sword or kukri over the multiplier of the handaxe. For example:

Dwarf ftr 6/WM 7/DD 27

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 6

Feats will be really tight but you can squeeze in dev crit (if available) with 7 attacks/round and 27 DR. You need 13 DEX for WM anyway, so 15 isn't much of a stretch.
I agree with you on this point monk ( oh btw on my little dungeon romp server cantrip continue in effectiveness until lvl 5 ) although jyap was talking about a double hand axe as in dual wieldied which i said would not be better thana long sword and shield wep master and then mentions handaxe wep masters should be left to the halflings wher ethey can abuse it the best ( csing wep master possibly the scariest thing you will ever see crits for 11d6 damage( out of nowhere including sneaks ) and then if your powerattack 11d6 +20 :/ very nasty ^_^ that was my point and in my above explanation of why the halfling gets more ac more ab and the same amount of chances to hit as the ranger and more damage +4 < +5 for power attack :) and the ranger could not afford poweratatck unless he wishes to have 40% chance of hitting on his best attacks ( though i will admit against a 10 ac fighter the ranger would have an advantage )

[JYAP]

I don't recall sneak attack damage counting for crits. It's like Massive Crits to my memory,where the damage is just tacked on.

[Felonious Monk]

Except halfings can't finesse handaxes and suffer a -4 dualwield penalty with them, which is the original concept. If you are going to be a DEX-based halfling WM you will pretty much need to use a kukri, especially if dualwielding. I would argue that it is far better to dualwield as a WM (especially a rogue/WM) than to use a sword and board.

Sneak attack damage is never multiplied on a critical hit, but I don't think he said that. It's kinda hard to tell.

[JYAP]

Actually,his point sucks. The ranger/WM/rogue I mentioned gets WM faster and sneaks better if he saves points through his WM levels. The halfling is trying to sneak but his shield adds on armor penalties. And with Monk's revelation that you can't dex a handaxe,my build works better cause it's str based. Sorry Halfwing,I think you lose.

[Halfwingseen]

Except halfings can't finesse handaxes and suffer a -4 dualwield penalty with them, which is the original concept. If you are going to be a DEX-based halfling WM you will pretty much need to use a kukri, especially if dualwielding. I would argue that it is far better to dualwield as a WM (especially a rogue/WM) than to use a sword and board.

Sneak attack damage is never multiplied on a critical hit, but I don't think he said that. It's kinda hard to tell.

I know sneak dmaage isnt multiplied but halfling can indeed finesse a handaxe i will post some screen shots to prove this if you want and the halfling would use a large shield ( whos penalty to stealth is negligable with halfling bonus's ) i just added the 7d6 damage onto the first attack+ the 1d6 for handaxe damage and i said 4d6 on a crit ( 1d6 X4 multiplier )
and jyap i win :) i have screen shots proving all of this is monk wants to meet me on eb with jyaps build and ill use mine i will win hands down repeatedly
oh and im double posting iwth my response to jyap appology in advanced

[Halfwingseen]

Actually,his point sucks. The ranger/WM/rogue I mentioned gets WM faster and sneaks better if he saves points through his WM levels. The halfling is trying to sneak but his shield adds on armor penalties. And with Monk's revelation that you can't dex a handaxe,my build works better cause it's str based. Sorry Halfwing,I think you lose.
*locks and loads*
PULL!!!
Ranger/WM is the max u can achieve b4 20 ive tried
PULL!!!
wep master u get 1 + int modifier skills your saying ur not getting in skills for 8 lvls
PULL!!!
A large creature cannot sneak better than a small one
PULL!!!
you can dex a halfling an di hhave screen shots of my ab with a handaxe ( dexable ) and a battle axe ( not dexable )
PULL!!!
your build sucks because its a ranger using low dex tactics unless ur saying ur using full plate then HA you lsoe your ranger bonus's and thus have a -7/-9 penalty to hit
PULL!!!
Thus i win again
and your points are shot to pieces

[JYAP]

Ok,so what? Ranger has Hide/MS anyways.

A medium-sized creature sneaks better than a crazed halfling with a shield. You understand the concept of Armor Penalty right?

And this is where I think you've gone off the deep end because you can't admit I'm right and you're wrong. A small creature considers all weapons 1 size larger. Therefore,Q-staffs,greatswords,and the like aren't wieldable. Weapons like katanas and longswords,being considered medium weapons,are considered large weapons for halflings. The handaxe is a light weapon,so it's considered a medium weapon. You can only dex light weapons and the rapier if you're a medium sized creature. Therefore,a dagger or kukri can be dexed,but not a short sword...which only makes it more painful you can't be a large creature. Sniffle...dual greatswords...

Does AC really matter for a rogue? Dex only gets you so far,and my build is simply a rogue with more HP and the potential to deal some insane damage on criticals in lieu of Sneak Attack. If your halfling were to have better AC,HE would need full plate since dex won't work with his handaxe. And the clunking of that will be heard by every spotter in the zone.

And you really need to deflate your ego.

[Halfwingseen]

1.Ok,so what? Ranger has Hide/MS anyways.

2.A medium-sized creature sneaks better than a crazed halfling with a shield. You understand the concept of Armor Penalty right?

3.And this is where I think you've gone off the deep end because you can't admit I'm right and you're wrong. A small creature considers all weapons 1 size larger. Therefore,Q-staffs,greatswords,and the like aren't wieldable. Weapons like katanas and longswords,being considered medium weapons,are considered large weapons for halflings. The handaxe is a light weapon,so it's considered a medium weapon. You can only dex light weapons and the rapier if you're a medium sized creature. Therefore,a dagger or kukri can be dexed,but not a short sword...which only makes it more painful you can't be a large creature. Sniffle...dual greatswords...

4.Does AC really matter for a rogue? Dex only gets you so far,and my build is simply a rogue with more HP and the potential to deal some insane damage on criticals in lieu of Sneak Attack. If your halfling were to have better AC,HE would need full plate since dex won't work with his handaxe. And the clunking of that will be heard by every spotter in the zone.

5.And you really need to deflate your ego.

1. A ranger has hide/ms but only 2 skills + int mod u have barely enough to get the intimidate skill needd for wep master and hide/ms if u have the req 13 int
to get a wep amster with ranger ur stats must be like this
Str: variable usualy 10-16
Dex 13( varaiable if u go 10 str may go to 18 dex )
Con with 16str u have 8 con with 14 str u have 12
Wis: 11 ( ranger default )
INt 13
Cha: 8
because you picked ranger you stats are enormously spread thin my rogue wep master stats:
str: 10
Dex:20
Con:14
Wis:8
INt:13
Cha:8
and that without usin all my skill points i think
2. The armor penalty for a large shield is -2 to hide and ms completely and utterly offset by the +3 MS/+2Hide for being small and halfling thus i have a basic bonus of +1 MS on you standardly
3. AT EB i have 14 ab with a dagger wit +1 enhance and with a handae ihave 15 AB ( weapon focus ) thus we all know daggers are dexable my str is 10 an di have the same ab this handaxe must be dexable :) i have a SS of it tell me how to post it msall creatures consider medium and large weapons one size large small and tiny weapons are the same :) at least when dexing/dual wielding im not goign to admit a false fact because i AM right
4.AC is the world in a non mage fight withotu AC a build is useless if you have a huge ab and a tiny ac you will be destroyed because kd works very well when u hit alot and you basically dont deal damage when kd'd :) more hp? if you go max str rangers 1d10 hp is -1 so ur 1d10-1 my rogue is 1d6+3 3-9 > 1-9 my hp is the same and when u go to wep master wow the same hit die if we both maximum we have the SAME hp and my build does massive damage on the first hit and also on crits ( power attack because your ac is so low and +5 > +4 for ur str (assuming u added to str 2 points if u added for we have the SAME ab and same damage and same hp just i would hit more ur ac is lower than mine :) your ac bonus is ( with reg armor assuming ur using leather for +2 bonus because thats the max u can wear with ranger ) u have 13 AC as a halfling with 20 dex at lvl i unarmored i have 17 ac when dealin wit ya and 15 when dealin wit a halfling and with my large shield +2 more and thus i have 19 when dealin wit ya without armor but i can put in leather too and get +2 more 21 > 13 i have 8 more ac than you when im lvl 1 ur lvl 20.... when im lvl 20 i get 2 more ac 23 > 13 10 more ac SAME ab SAME damage SAME crits SAME hp 2 less attacks but those will not hit anyway i WILL have the advantage and i bet you wont read through this just dismiss it :/
5. its not an ego driving me to do this its to deflate ur ego that im doing this because i know i right and you wont back down
6. Attached i have 2 screen shots one of a halfling rogue's inventory and char sheet when having a dagger with +1 enhancement and one with a handaxe just to prove ya completely wrong ur whole arguements besed on not being able to dex a handaxe where i have proof you can ( note the only ab wdifference is wep focus )
bam im right totally here

[JYAP]

I give up. Arguing with Halfwing isn't worth it anymore.

[Halfwingseen]

cause im right no need to argue :)

[Felonious Monk]

If handaxes can be finessed by halflings then it's an exploit. Halflings can't finesse handaxes (small) for the same reason humans can't finesse longswords (medium): they aren't light for their size category.

[JYAP]

GASP! GLITCH!

I win by default.

[Halfwingseen]

If handaxes can be finessed by halflings then it's an exploit. Halflings can't finesse handaxes (small) for the same reason humans can't finesse longswords (medium): they aren't light for their size category.
Its due to the fact of the poorly made wep finesse feat basically u can finezsee everything listed witha ahalfling or gnome
EXCEPT rapiers

[JYAP]

Bingo. Bioware's fault. Defending a glitch is dumb and pointless.

[Felonious Monk]

I can't believe they've let it go so long. No matter. If it works, it works. It's still not worth DWing them as a halfling though.

[JYAP]

Now then,something a halfling can't do.

DUAL RAPIER WM YO!

[Halfwingseen]

dual rapier wep master =/= dual kama wep master monk cleric ^_^ you just cant defend that class vs the most annoyingly screwed up class combo EVER

[Felonious Monk]

I just don't see the attraction towards DWing rapiers. You can DW kukris for +2 AB on all your attacks and -1 damage or DW short swords for +2 AB and -3 to your crit range (13-20 vs 10-20 with keen). Since your chance of scoring a crit is completely dependant on AB and crit range, you will be doing at least as much damage with either of these than you would with rapiers. Am I missing something?

[JYAP]

Kukris can get overlooked on server weapon selection. >_>

Other than that,kukri WM>Rapier WM>Any halfling WM made by Halfwing. :P

What about Pale Master? Kinda...weak despite the AC boost. The summons are junk and would be junkier if the caster's familiar increased in level still.

[Protoss119]

What?! Halfwing beat me!? THAT CAN'T BE! NOOOO- ~explodes like Kakaru~

Anywho, rapiers can't be Finesse'd by Halfwings? That's a pile of ~explodes again~

You could try Dual-wielding at L7 (:/) but I've been really unsuccessful (Damn PK mages).

Final Point: Yeah, PM summons kind of suck. However, this is quickly made up for by the touch attacks (prolly). A monk/sorc/PM wouldn't be such a bad idea, given the fact that monks will prolly have an alright unarmed AB (with the emphasis on "alright") and that contributes to the PM Touch attack AB.

3-month-later EDIT: (I must stop using Parenthesis(.).)

[Halfwingseen]

Kukris can get overlooked on server weapon selection. >_>

Other than that,kukri WM>Rapier WM>Any halfling WM made by Halfwing. :P

What about Pale Master? Kinda...weak despite the AC boost. The summons are junk and would be junkier if the caster's familiar increased in level still.
a halfling double kukri rogue wep master > a big person kukri wep master ^_^
and gnome barb Scimitar wep master > halfling doublle kukri rogue wep master
also pale master gets AC boost( its +4 at lvl 10 and +12 at lvl 30 ) immunity to most paralyze techniques along with critical hits and sneak attacks and animate dead and create undead are his worthless summons create greater undead increases the power of its summon over time ( a lvl 5 fighter lvl 5 bard lvl 30 PM summons a demi lich and can wear full plate a shield and a bastard sword have HUGE AC and a demi lich summon..... ) also at earlier lvls they summon vampire rogues ( a lvl 20 class that is 10 undead 10 rogue with dom gaze and huge sneak ect )

[Protoss119]

But what's the point of summons if you can only summon 1? That's why I NEVER use Summons.

[JYAP]

Well Protoss,you could summon a Familiar,a Companion,and cast Summon Creature or use a skill that works like it. All 3 would stay. However,the Familiar only levels with that particular caster level and you can't have a wizard/sorc and have 2 familiars. Alas,if there was Familiar PvP...huh? What?

[Protoss119]

Oh sure, yeah. But still, part of me wants a huge army.

I just thought of something. Suppose you're in HOTU and have 2 party members, right? Well, summon an Animal Companion, a Familiar, a random summoned creature, & a PM summoned creature (maybe it will work) and dominate somebody. 8 Party members. X_X

And I was talking about the actual summon spells, aka Summon Creature V, etc. You can only have one of them, so you can't cast I-IX in order without one of the summons being unsummoned.

Speaking of which, there needs to be a lot more diversity in summons, like in PnP D&D.

[JYAP]

Take my Deadlord class at level 10,with 2 henchmen that were somehow Druid/Wizard. Deadlord summons all his minions,henchmen summon an animal,companion,and familiar,deadlord summons his familiar and summon,and bam. You have 3(casters)+5(undead)+3(familiar)+2(companion)+3(su mmon)=16 party members. That's enough to burn down the Underdark. For kicks,have a third henchman that's also a druid/wizard,and an extra 4 people join. They'll all die brutally,but it'll be fun and 1 rest and the party can return to full strength. Imagine all the lag you'll cause!

[Protoss119]

Holy hell...if NWN worked like KOTOR II where you could take control of party members, that could really be accomplished.

But wait, suppose one of them is a Lesser Demilich. A Lesser Demilich can summon a random Elder Elemental, so that's 17.

Oh, and dominate somebody. 18. Instant win.

[Halfwingseen]

Protoss a Demi Lich u can summon as a lvl 30 PM counts as a lvl 20 undead lvl 20 wizard you know he casts all lvls of spells has a familiar and summon :)

[JYAP]

BUT he does not have a level of Druid. Fail.

[Protoss119]

Re: Halfling

Yeah, I know.

Re: JYAP

And that's why we're throwing in the Druid henchman...right?

[JYAP]

Or just make everyone in the party Deadlords. That works.

Enemy: Attack!

Player: Attack!

Enemy: Retrea-GAK!

[Protoss119]

...3(casters)+5(undead)+3(familiar)+2(companion)+3 (summon)=16 party members.

The PM/Deadlords can summon Lesser Demiliches to count as summons and in turn they can summon Elder Elementals. That makes...HOLY HELL! 27 PARTY MEMBERS!

[JYAP]

Yup. Scary ain't it? And considering I didn't cap off Deadlord's minion limit to my memory,one Epic Deadlord can easily create an entire army. Now go back,see when you get a new minion,and calculate that. You'll top 27 easy.

Plus,if a Lesser Demilich has wizard levels,he can call a familiar,technically. Unless his name is Boddyknock Glinkle,the most worthless henchman in history.

[Protoss119]

~Calculator in head breaks~

Still, I guess there's a good reason Bioware capped summons. Still, I wouldn't mind having an army of party members, would you?

[JYAP]

Not at all. Counters out the advantage the enemy usually gets,especially at Chapter 2 when you're defending the drow from the enemy.

[Protoss119]

Indeed. What a freaking huge army it would be...

[JYAP]

If Deadlord's lich had 10 Deadlord levels,the Deadlord can make an endless multiplying chain of summons. Consider.

[Protoss119]

Now THAT would burn down the Underdark in seconds. Death by lag!

[JYAP]

You would only need your main char to be a Deadlord in that situation. Anyone else is icing on the cake.

[Protoss119]

Yup. ~head explodes due to huge army of undead~

[Halfwingseen]

*casts undead to death on your plan* :)

[Protoss119]

Like anyone uses that.

[JYAP]

He has a point. One spell and the 100+ strong army collaspes to 1 man.

[Protoss119]

Yeah...but unless he has Banishment/Dismissal, the other summons will probably beat the crap out of him.

[JYAP]

Of course,in PvP,a giant army would stick out like a sore thumb. They'd murder the Deadlord and the entire army falls.

[Halfwingseen]

I use undeath to death its not used in PvP becauseit only targets undead just like how sun burst is rarelly used low damage but insta kill to vampires. also the deadlord would be the biggest feeding class in the game...... 100+ summons all give EXP.

[JYAP]

Who gives a flip?

What's the next topic? I'm bored to death on this one.

[Protoss119]

also the deadlord would be the biggest feeding class in the game...... 100+ summons all give EXP.


Actually, that would suck the EXP from your bones.

[Felonious Monk]

Summons aren't supposed to leech XP, and in NWN2 they no longer do.

[Protoss119]

Aw, sweet!

[JYAP]

They never did anyways. If they did,the exp drain is so slight it's unnoticeable.

So are henchmen useful in single player? In the regular campaign,Tomi,Daelin,the monk dude(Argh! I'm forgetting names!),and Linu are the best. Sharwyn's not too handy IMO,and Boddyknock will use a fireball on a rat. Plus he has no familiar.

In SoU,Xanos is good for laughs but sucktacular as a henchman. Really,sorceror/barbarian? Who's the drunk moron that thought of that? Dorna's MUCH better and can easily kick ass. Deekin comes too late and doesn't offer much that Dorna can't cover.

In HotU,Deekin got insanely stronger since your last foray with him and pretty much should always be on your team. Valen can't stand the Doom Song(True story. At one point Valen comments on where Deekin learned the doom song,as he says it's...irritating. His initial description is more vivid.),but he wtfpwns alot of people anyways. Nathyrra's a bit...odd. I'm not sure. It's really a toss-up between Nathyrra and Valen,since Deekin also wtfpwns with Dragon Disciple levels. The original henchmen(minus Boddyknock and what's-his-name monk dude)aren't worth mentioning really.

[Felonious Monk]

Summons, familiars, animal companions, and henchmen all sucked XP. In NWN2 only party members are considered when calculating XP. Your party mates will be customizable in that you can pick their feats, etc when they level up. You can also control them directly, so if they suck it's your fault.

[Protoss119]

:O

Just like KOTOR II. I could swear in court that there will be an Atton Rand-like henchman in NWN2.

[JYAP]

Quite interesting. So I could turn,say,Tomi into a smaller Daelin? This prospect intrigues me.

Did you know some noobs think half-orcs are a size larger than humans? Sad isn't it?

[Felonious Monk]

I had one noob try to convince me that bastard swords hit more often than longswords. Because they're cooler, I guess.

[JYAP]

Isn't it sad when the majority of players are dwarf/half orc fighters? Talk about no originality whatsoever.

Dwarves aren't counted as small size. They're medium size despite their stature. Adding on some of the short stature bonuses while keeping them at medium size would've been imba though.

[Protoss119]

That's why I always stick to Elf fighters, Finesse or Archers. The Dex bonus is quite nifty & the Con penalty isn't that bad, though I prize many HPs.

[Halfwingseen]

i liek half orcs mainly because i can pump up str and widsom and be a killer ranger ^^

[JYAP]

Dex seems like Agility in WC. It's the one stat to rule them all,apparently.

Except damage wise. Gonna be hilarious when that crazed dex monk slams into a wall of DR 5/5. Let's see what his puny fists do now.

But still,half orcs are one-dimensional. Dwarves are good if you don't need Human's extra feat and skill points. Halflings and gnomes can eat IKD all day long. Elves have a not-so-attractive con penalty,and half-elves just plain suck. This is in terms of casters though. >_>

Melee-wise,half orcs=dwarves>humans>rest. No contest strength wise. Dex wise,halfling=elf>rest.

[Protoss119]

Hmm. Half-Orc rangers...never considered that.

Con shmon. Doesn't mean you won't get good HP anyway unless your con is 6.

[Felonious Monk]

Dwarves are considered the best non-ECL race in DnD, while half-orcs and half-elves are considered the worst.

[JYAP]

You gotta love how versatile humans are though. They make good anythings. Human paladin? K. Human wizard? Alright. Human rogue? Sure.

Half orc wizard? Rofl. Halfling paladin? Good one. Dwarf bard? LAWL.

[Protoss119]

Actually, I've gotten a good ways with a Halfling Paladin. The trick is cutting the Str loss in favor of Dex. You end up with a Finesse Paladin of sorts. The buffs still help too...I can't remember whether you still get Divine Power or not.

Or you can forget Dex and go Str. Of course, going STR MIGHT cost you that one extra point of Cha and maybe a few points of Con (so you're stuck with 12 Con) to buff STR.

[JYAP]

12 Con is above average and should suffice. Some strength boosting gear will negate the Str penalty. I say you balance it and get like 16 Cha,12 Str/Con/Dex or something.

[Protoss119]

Yeah, that will probably work. However, buffs are still going to be the Pally's main strength, and no race (yes, not even the half-elf) will negate that. Except dwarves & half-orcs if you like Divine Might/Shield.

[JYAP]

The thought of a half-orc paladin is almost as scary as Xanos's multiclassing. Bioware must've been drunk when deciding his two classes.

[Silentblade]

Paladins are one of the most difficult classes to build unless your going pure str and don't worry about wisdome for their spells that much.

I useually start with 15 Wis/ 14 Char/ 12str/ 12dex/12 con/ 12 intel. That is with human race though.

[JYAP]

WTF! A NEW POSTER! AHHHHHHHHHH!
(explodes,sending bones everywhere)

Yeah,Pallys are frickin hard to make a good build for. Int's the only stat you can skimp on. Maybe Dex if you want to give up 1 AC. Taunt's a worthwhile skill though,and I wonder if you got enough skill points after Discipline to put into Taunt and Concentrate...

Yes,I DID recommend Concentrate. Taunt provokes a Concentrate check. If you fail,you lose a good deal of AC. Except when I use it on my friend. Then he auto-rages and I get wailed on unless we're playing a game I own at.

[Halfwingseen]

I feel that a sorc/pally/rdd is effective lvl 1 sorc lvl 9 pally lvl 10 rdd ( at lvl 20 with 40 lvls you will end up with 29 pally )

( btw this build is for HALF ORCS )

the RDD provides total of + 4 to CHA off setting the half orcs weakness totally along with providing + 2 ac/damage and 2 reflex/will/fortitude with divine power/shield and paladin class

along with th + 8 STR for 4 ab/damage you pally becomes a powerhouse with a true strike and mage armor casting bonanza ( + 1 ac with mage armor ) and + 20 ab for your smiting with true strike bam killer build for half orc pally
( with then you start with 16 CHA and it gets boosted to 20 which is + 5 ac/damage and + 5 to all saves whcih is sufficient because you will use cha items as well )

I believe 20 str 16 cha and 14 int is my build i will have to check i dun mind the - 1 ac because mage armor counter acts it and the - to health doesnt affect you much when you get lay on hands.. why 14 int? imp kd and total of 4 skill points you get disc taunt concentration and spellcraft ( spellcraft? u may ask but every 5 point in spellcraft u get + 1 to saves vs spells making a pally even more magic resistant ) also in epic lvls your only getting great CHA because ur str will be godly by then and you should be able to get dev crit fairly soon ( lvl 23 if you smart ) ALSO the bonus 8 CHA is + 4 ac/damage and saves so yea



EDIT Oh yea Whats up silent blade bout time i see you round

[JYAP]

Stop. While it's true the half-orc is better damage-wise,a human would be better overall,or at least in saves. Why?

The human gains 4 more skill points at level 1,and 1 more thereafter,and that special bonus feat that you know you want to sink into Toughness. "But he doesn't gain any strength bonus!" you might say. Think of it this way. +2 Strength gives +1 to damage(assuming one-hander). +2 to Charisma gives +1 to all saves,better turn undead ability,better pally spells...Yeah. I'll go with the Charisma,thank you very much.

[Halfwingseen]

errr cha isnt pally spells in any way actually its all wisdom based.. cept for turn undead/divines just so ya know a 30 wis pally casts better than a 30 cha pally ^^

[JYAP]

But some of the paladin's spells use his Charisma. I win.

[Halfwingseen]

they are feats not spells I win

[JYAP]

Dammit Wing,you're overlooking one or two spells in the paladin's spells that use his Charisma. I can't remember them,but go look at them.

EDIT: Oh God. I said moveset instead of spells. The Pokemon curse is upon me!

[Halfwingseen]

There are None. its called Wisdom Based casting for a reason

Lay on Hands and turn and the divines only things that use charisma

Unless your talking about the spell that makes a weapon Holy avenger...that spell does NOTHIGN about charisma the effect Holy Avanger deals bonus damage if ur a pally attacking an evil thing

[JYAP]

Could've sworn there was a pally spell that used Charisma...

Anyhoo,Holy Avenger acts as a +5 weapon and dispels magic on contact if a pally wields it on anyone. Otherwise it's just a fancy name for a +2 weapon.

[Protoss119]

It works with Scythes, I assume? I haven't made a pally in ages...

[JYAP]

Oh God,a Holy Avenger scythe with Rain having 1 Paladin level instead of 1 Barbarian level.

...

Toss,you gave me divine inspiration. I could multiclass Paladin in NWN2 with Barbarian! So at 20 it'll be like 8 WM/10 Fighter/1 Barb/1 Pally. If I got spare WM/Fighter levels I could level Pally further for bonus skills. WOOOOOOOT!

[Halfwingseen]

You can Holy Avenger everything ( i think maybe arrows/bolt/bullets but i doubt this ) that you have cast magic weapon on ( from the spell ) and the alignment issue with pally/barb :/

[JYAP]

Well,alignment reqs should be disabled in most servers. Failing that,bonus level for pally.

[Protoss119]

Glad I could help. XD

[JYAP]

I don't like checking back here to see Toss's post. It's irritating.

So,how bout them Blackguards?

[Halfwingseen]

Blackguards are one of the most Underrated classes ( along with Harper )
I personally think they are amazing with bard/blackguards and sorc/blackguards

[JYAP]

They're hard to make a build around though. Plus with the lack of spell-friendly armor in PvP servers a sorc/blackguard only asks for much pain.

[Protoss119]

I'll say this: The blackguard has too many summons and not enough buffs. Contagion sucks and Inflict Critical/Serious wounds would only be good with True Strike. Plus, the Blackguard has NO spells period. This is, of course, contrary to the PRC Anti-Paladin base class, but that's another story.

[Almuric]

I always thought the Blackguard class was pretty useless. So many more benefits if you mix with a paladin instead.

[Halfwingseen]

JYAP: with your logic pally sorcs should be useless also
who says your goign to be wearing armor ALSO who says they have to be str based
charisma/dex for sorc/BG
Contagion isnt a pvp spell
inflict wounds are useful if you at close range with a caster with damage shields
also the fiend you summon is amazing at killing and in epic lvls ikd on a summon is perfect for magekilling
+ the sneak attack for going by DR ^^

[Protoss119]

Well, Blackguard works better with fighters. MUCH better. Plus, the effectiveness of the melee is based on three factors: AC, AB, and Damage. Without much AC, you won't get far without plenty of protection spells and since Sorc is skipping some levels where he could get more of those for Blackguard...

[JYAP]

Charisma/Dex=Barely any damage. All of it will come from sneak attacks,and if you're going for that,you should be a sorc/rogue.

Furthermore,if you want ANY sort of spellcasting,your AC is going to be compromised. Consider for a moment how many people will figure out how to get uber crits. Hell,forget that,consider how many use scythes. Yup,gg.

And Contagion sucks period.

[Almuric]

First level wizards get alot of armor buffs.

[JYAP]

Only Dodge AC stacks. If you have any decent equipment,about 2 or 3 will be overruled.

And these are sorcs. Not wizzies,which are superior in many ways,but sorcs. >_>

[Halfwingseen]

Blackguards get smite good dealing an attack with +CHA mdo AB and +CHA mod magical damage
ALLLSO
Divine Shield /might + CHA mod to AC and damage for CHA mod Rounds

Flame weapon ( 2d4+6 Damage )
Greater magic wep
+ 5 Enhancement )
true strike (+ 20 AB )
Cats Grace ( + 5 DEX )
Eagles Splender ( + 5 CHA )
Bull str ( + 5 STR )
explain to me how this sucks :/ ( based off of lvl 4 blackguard lvl 16 SORC )

[JYAP]

Level 4 blackguard? Why? What's the point then? Just get the extra sorc levels. Heaven KNOWS sorcs are always in dire need of spells.

Plus,you only seem to judge based off how much damage something does. Does it really matter if this guy can tear apart someone in like 4 hits if he gets pasted in 1?

Look,I'll even calculate it for you.

16/4 Sorc/Blackguard's HP(assuming Con of 10): 104

Critical of your average scythe WM(assuming Str of 20): 2d4+7+2 x 5=55-85

It only takes 1 critical and a regular whack to off the sorc/blackguard. Furthermore,it only gets one good shot before it needs to waste half a round recasting True Strike. The average scythe WM can score so many hits on the poor guy,he'll only live 2 rounds,3 if he's lucky.

Therefore,while the damage is indeed impressive,it's moot since the sorc will get pwned pretty easily.

Oh,before I forget,1 critical/Ki Damage>Premonition. That is all.

[Almuric]

OK, if it's going to be a sorc then I agree you wont want to waste slots on AC buffs, but that's only because Sorc suck.

[Protoss119]

...Trog? Are you there?

There's a ton of people going around saying Sorcs are better than Wizzies, but I'm just gonna say they're equal in a way.

[Halfwingseen]

Now jyap add 40 hp for endurance.
then add the fact you are dumb and you never get a mage with 10 con
+ 40 more
then add greater stoneskin
+ 20 DR
effectively 100 more hp ( and 20 more per hit taken until 200 damage absorbed )

[Halfwingseen]

then the effective AC of this mage is
( with + 3 robes + 3 cloak haste +2 boots + 3 ammy ) 25 AC
then the 16 dex
28 AC
then mage armor
30 AC
Then Divine Shield
39 AC
then cats grace
41 AC
then dodge
42 AC
then a small shield + 3
46 AC
now its hp would b 186
its saves would b + 9 to all

[Halfwingseen]

its damage

( assuming a Rapier with 1d6 damage and + 3 enhance as found on EB
1d6+1d6+3
thenflame wep
2d4+6
then greater magic wep
1d6+2d4+1d6+5
Bulls STR
1d6+2d4+1d6+5+2
divine might
1d6+2d4+1d6+5+2+9
total damage per hit
20-36 per hit
40-72 on a crit
with 4 attacks a round
( haste + 3 attacks a round )
A round you deal 80-140 damage with 0 crits
now what about the AB vs AC
average ac of lvl 20 scythe wep master
+ 3 + 4 +3 + 3 +8 + 3
+24

[Halfwingseen]

34 AC of the scythe wep master :/
and for the sorc/blackguards AB?


( with no true strike )

BAB of 12
12
+ 3 for dex
+ 2 for cats grace
+ 5 for enhancement
+ 1 for wep focus
23 AB
so i have a 45% chance of hitting
(and 95% with true strike)
now for the AB of the wep master
BAB of 19
+ 3 enhancement
+ 5 for STR
+ 1 wep focus
+ 2 wep master wep focus ( assuming lvl 10 fighter/wep master though if u went the usual 7/13 then its + 1 )
30 AB
you have a 20% chance of hitting me
chance to crit is 20% of 20% so 4% crit chance
mine is 45% of 20% so 9% chance to crit

[Halfwingseen]

overall statistics
Sorc/BG
46 AC
206HP ( toughness feat included )
23 AB ( without true strike or smite rasing by 20 and 9 respectively )
20-36 damage
40-72 crits
4 attacks a round
1.8 connects a round
50.4 damage a round ( assuming average damage and no crits )
.36 crits connects a round
20.16 crit damage a round ( assuming average )
Scythe Wep master
34 AC
300 HP ( assuming 18 CON and toughness )
30 AB
5 attacks a round
12-23 ( giving + 3/1d6 scythe ) a hit
70-115 per crit
1 Connect a round
17.5 Damage a round ( assuming average damage no crits )
.2 crit connects a round
18.5 crit damage a round ( assuming average )

[Halfwingseen]

Difference and favor:
12 AC ( sorc/bg )
96 HP ( wepmaster )
7 AB ( wep master )
18-34 Damage ( sorc/bg )
1 APR ( attack per round ) ( wepmaster )
.8 connects a round ( sorc/bg )
32.9 damage no crit per round ( sorc/bg )
.16 Crit connects a round ( sorc/bg )

[Halfwingseen]

All these figures is assuming the sorc/bg does not cast interposing hand or any spells AT the wep master
sorry my comp wouldnt let me most this all as one topic but considering i have NEVER been a aprt of the spam topics jyap and toss makes i think i should be excused from this ^^

[Protoss119]

You can't max Blackguard without losing your shot at greater stoneskin. So hah.

Spam topics? Elaborate. Most of the crap was either in the Guest Area, General Discussion, & Rune's Pub. Can't really call them spam topics there.

[Halfwingseen]

WHo said i maxed blackguard :/ i said 4/16 lvl 16 sorc.

and-(The rest of this post was considered spam and cleaned up.)

[JYAP]

Wing,the amount of trouble you need to go through to get that exact configuration is why Sorc/BG sucks. You're better off with something else.

[Halfwingseen]

if your not willing to do a lil work then why bother with pvp ever

[JYAP]

Because HOW many people will go through that much trouble to get THAT good a character?

With all the stuff he needs to set up,any dispel will **** him over.

We have a censor? Hm.

Interesting. Wing seems to have fled the battlefield. Victory!

[Protoss119]

They never did anyways. If they did,the exp drain is so slight it's unnoticeable.

So are henchmen useful in single player? In the regular campaign,Tomi,Daelin,the monk dude(Argh! I'm forgetting names!),and Linu are the best. Sharwyn's not too handy IMO,and Boddyknock will use a fireball on a rat. Plus he has no familiar.

In SoU,Xanos is good for laughs but sucktacular as a henchman. Really,sorceror/barbarian? Who's the drunk moron that thought of that? Dorna's MUCH better and can easily kick ass. Deekin comes too late and doesn't offer much that Dorna can't cover.

In HotU,Deekin got insanely stronger since your last foray with him and pretty much should always be on your team. Valen can't stand the Doom Song(True story. At one point Valen comments on where Deekin learned the doom song,as he says it's...irritating. His initial description is more vivid.),but he wtfpwns alot of people anyways. Nathyrra's a bit...odd. I'm not sure. It's really a toss-up between Nathyrra and Valen,since Deekin also wtfpwns with Dragon Disciple levels. The original henchmen(minus Boddyknock and what's-his-name monk dude)aren't worth mentioning really.

You forgot - I dare mention her name - Aribeth.

Good Aribeth...if you can stand the emo, then she's good if you're a mage. Evil Aribeth's not so good since she has more Blackguard levels. And as you know, Blackguard = Crud.

[JYAP]

It's miraculous Aribeth doesn't kill herself turning undead. Really.

She's decent,really. Only paladin henchman,and the only paladin/blackguard evar. That's it,really. Can't find too much reason for her.

[Almuric]

You forgot - I dare mention her name - Aribeth.

Good Aribeth...if you can stand the emo, then she's good if you're a mage. Evil Aribeth's not so good since she has more Blackguard levels. And as you know, Blackguard = Crud.

I have to agree, crud. I've never seen much use for Blackguard as a class in NWN. I suppose it could be good for roleplaying.

[JYAP]

Then Wing will come in and blather about how Blackguard is so good,blah blah blah,if you take this feat and level in this class,blah blah blah...

Anyhoo,Blackguard doesn't have too much going for it. Some useless spells for the most part(Bull's Strength and Inflict Critical Wounds help)and wimpy Paladin skills along with a toned-down sneak attack seals its fate. It's pretty much Paladin Lite,for those that can't have Lawful Good for an alignment.

It could be pretty nasty with Barbarian,and somewhat decent with Monk,but that's all I can see that fully utilizes its capabilities.

And Wing,the sorc/blackguard will NOT work unless you're given level 20. Don't you dare mention me and Toss's high post count as a reason for your opinion to be right.

[Almuric]

Actually though it goes completely against everything I believe, I've heard that a blackguard/paladin is pretty decent.

[Halfwingseen]

Pally/blackguad gives + 2 to all stats per CHA mod. thats why its effective people get cleric/pally/bg for a high save annoyingly buffed up guy :/
Black guard is also decent for its turn undead/ giving you charactor ( if yu didnt go cleric/pally ) access to divine might/shield which is fun ^^
He also has a nifty lil summon ^^ which just get better as he lvls

[Protoss119]

Nifty little SUMMONS, of which he can have only ONE of at a time.

It doesn't get better as he levels until he gets the Epic Fiendish Servant feat.

That only happens when Pally gets...bah, I can't remember the name of the feat. But he needs that feat in order for it to happen. Blackguards to my knowledge don't get that feat.

[JYAP]

Yes,a paladin/blackguard is an awesome combo. It's just not allowed in most servers like EB.

Make it allowed in EB. Then I can also make paladin/bards. Awesome saves AND the kickass songs and inspirations!

[Halfwingseen]

Protoss requirements for Divine might/shield Power attack Turn undead
Classes wallowing power attack:
ALL
classes allowing turn undead
Paladin
cleric
Blackguard
and the Holy blessing/dark blessing feats ghive + 1 saves per cha mod and they stakc with eachother


AND JYAP thats if you get off your lazy butt and buy NWN again eh?

[Protoss119]

Ah, that was the name of it.

If a Paladin can get what a Blackguard can get but a Paladin can get more, then you might as well go Paladin.

EDIT: 1,666 posts.

Satan: MWAGAGAGAGAGA-

Alpha: Shut up. ~fires Demon Launcher at him~

Satan: WTF H4X- ~sent back to hell~

On the subject of Paladin/Blackguard...yes, come to think of it, a Paladin/Blackguard might just last. Buff up and throw Inflict Critical Wounds on somebody. $50 says it will hit 70% of the time.

[JYAP]

Really,Blackguard's like another class for free saves. A Pally/BG/CoT is hell to kill with spells. It's even more hellish if Monk or Rogue is allowed into the equation.

Paladin/Rogue? Intriguing. I might explore that with a halfling wielding a battleaxe or longsword. What weapon do you think he should wield?

And why the hell will I buy NWN when NWN2 comes out in 10 days?

[Halfwingseen]

i think blackguard is a half ass prestiege class that needs to be combine with another ( assassin SD Dwarf defender pale master ) to gain enough benefits to be worth it
would be an okay lil base class though ^^

[JYAP]

It would be fine as a base class,granted the blackguard gets his own set of spells besides the small selection he has. Otherwise,good triumphs over evil cause evil got nerfed to hell.

Hmm...Anything/Werewolf/Blackguard. Ouch. The PrC classes will make Blackguard super-good.

[Protoss119]

Yeah, but Anti-Paladin PRC Base Class > Blackguard Prestige Class since the Anti-Paladin actually gets SPELLS. Well, actually, they're not actual spells, but the PRC creates such an atmosphere with his spell-like abilities that it's almost as if they were spells.

[Halfwingseen]

yea but anti paladin doesnt exist in NWN so oops bg wins :/ PRC doesnt count for anything

[JYAP]

Hence,BG phails. It needs PrC to blossom,since the sneak attack damage and saves could help for a ton of other classes,like Tempest. Imagine all those attacks on a KDed opponent.

[Protoss119]

protoss whats better getting + to saves that you cant get later or getting a feat that u can get with your 20 other feats later in the game?

I need 6 of those feats, Wing, not 5.